Gooooooooood MORNING TOR.COM! Hey, this is not a test, this the Wheel of Time Reread Redux! Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 4 and 5 of The Great Hunt, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.) The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay! All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 4: Summoned
Redux Commentary
“There was yet another proposal, one that still smells like week-old fish on the jetty.”
OH LOOK A FISH REFERENCE. Siuan Sanche in da houzzzzzzz
My observation in the original commentary still holds: the moment we enter the headspace of Moiraine and the Aes Sedai, it’s a whole new world from what we’ve seen thus far via the eyes of the Emond’s Fielders. I still remember how excited it made me, on first reading, to be abruptly given access as a reader to this distinctly broader and more complex view of the WOT universe. Because by the beginning of the second book in the series, the reader can be presumed to be thoroughly hooked at this point, and graceful infodumping can commence with little fear of boring the recipient. Which is exactly what Moiraine, Anaiya, and Liandrin’s conversation in this chapter was. And I was most definitely not bored by it.
Her sisters in the White Tower knew a few of her tricks, and suspected others, including some that did not exist, some that had shocked her when she learned of them.
I sort of love this little detail, because it’s the first implication we get that Moiraine is not just any Aes Sedai, but one of repute; one whom the other sisters are sufficiently in awe of that the tales of her feats have become wildly exaggerated. She’s a celebrity of sorts in her small community, and that’s kind of awesome.
It’s also instructive, because we will eventually learn that Moiraine’s abilities and prowess, in both the One Power and in general Aes Sedai-ing, have set a standard which most Aes Sedai over the course of the series will dismally fail to meet. And there’s an argument to be had over whether it is unfair of us to be disappointed that they don’t. Because Moiraine is obviously an exceptional person in many ways, as is only fitting for the Gandalf figure in the story, and so perhaps measuring other people by the bar she inadvertently set for the readers, as the sole exemplar of Aes Sedai we have up to this point, is kind of unrealistic.
And yet that is totally what I, at least, did for a good chunk of the series. It actually took me a good long while to realize that all the other Aes Sedai we were meeting were not supposed to be equal in awesomeness to Moiraine; that in fact the point was that they were not perfect examples of their avocation, at all. It also does not become clear for a long while that part of the reason Moiraine is so much better at Aes Sedai-ing than the others is not solely because of her own self, but because her quest kept her largely isolated from the Black Ajah-riddled Tower, and thus vastly more free from the influence of corruption than your average Aes Sedai ever had a chance to be.
“Some of us must work in the world,” Moiraine said gently. “I will leave the Hall of the Tower to you, Anaiya.”
There’s a fair bit of irony there, I think, in the implication that becoming the best of what an Aes Sedai can be hinged on being exposed to the actual Aes Sedai community as little as possible. This is a pattern we’ll see repeated later with the Supergirls, who of course were in the Tower for all of a hot second, comparatively, before being essentially flung into the wild blue yonder to fend for themselves.
In view of that, I don’t get the feeling Jordan had much patience for the institutional mindset. Judging by Moiraine and the Supergirls, at least, he was pretty clearly of the opinion that the best way to learn was by getting out there and doing, and that marinating too long in procedure and protocol was antithetical to being effective in the field, and ultimately doomed to corruption and failure. I get the feeling that, like many who served active tours in Vietnam, Jordan probably had some fairly pungent criticisms to make of REMFs, and he mapped that (justified) contempt emphatically onto the White Tower, which is nominally modeled after the ecclesiastical hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church, yes, but also takes a lot of inspiration from military infrastructure, particularly in the lower echelons of novices/Accepted.
Anaiya’s blunt face broke into a smile as soon as Moiraine opened the door. That smile gave her the only beauty she would ever have, but it was enough; almost everyone felt comforted, safe and special, when Anaiya smiled at them.
Aw. I’m still upset that she got murdered.
The dynamics between Anaiya, Liandrin and Moiraine are interesting, because neither Anaiya nor Liandrin appear to be deferring very much to Moiraine during their conversation. Anaiya is one thing, because Moiraine clearly likes her a great deal, and her behavior towards Lady Amalisa shows that Moiraine doesn’t care to stand on ceremony with people she likes, but Liandrin is a whole ‘nother ball of wax. She basically seems to treat Moiraine as an equal, which strikes me as odd, considering that later on we learn that Moiraine and Siuan outstripped every other Aes Sedai in the strength department until the Supergirls showed up.
So either Liandrin is strong enough to nearly match Moiraine, or Jordan hadn’t quite worked out the whole “strength ranking equals social ranking” thing for the Aes Sedai yet. I don’t remember if we ever get any kind of definitive indication of Liandrin’s strength level, but I didn’t get the impression that her strength was anything to write home about. So, who knows.
Would the people of Andor knowingly accept Elayne on the Lion Throne after Morgase if they knew? Not just a queen trained in Tar Valon according to custom, but a full Aes Sedai? In all of recorded history there had been only a handful of queens with the right to be called Aes Sedai, and the few who let it be known had all lived to regret it.
This makes a sort of sense to me, really. In non-apocalyptic times, having someone be a monarch and a sorcerer is just way too much power to concentrate in one person, it’s ridiculous. The potential for despotism and tyranny is through the roof, especially when you consider the fact that magic wielders in this universe can have a lifespan six times that of an ordinary person. And let’s not even get into the notion of having a head of state who could potentially use Compulsion on her subjects.
In apocalyptic times, on the other hand, having a head of state who can be her own heavy artillery is pretty awesome. So in a certain sense, Elayne picked the perfect time to be born – or rather, the Pattern did. Funny how that works out!
It’s sad-making how few of the (named) Aes Sedai in the Amyrlin’s chambers in this chapter (Moiraine, Siuan, Leane, Anaiya, Liandrin, Carlinya, Verin, Serafelle, and Alanna) survived the series. Out of those, Moiraine and Leane are the only ones still definitely alive after AMOL. (Liandrin doesn’t appear after KOD, so it’s hard to say whether she survived, but her situation is bad enough when we last see her that it almost doesn’t matter. And Serafelle never gets mentioned again after TDR, so possibly she survives, too, but again, she never gets mentioned again after TDR, so who cares.)
“Elaida is in Tar Valon, Daughter. She came with Elayne and Gawyn.”
[…] “I am surprised, Mother,” [Moiraine] said carefully. “This is no time for Morgase to be without Aes Sedai counsel.” Morgase was one of the few rulers to openly admit to an Aes Sedai councilor; almost all had one, but few admitted it.
“Elaida insisted, Daughter, and queen or not, I doubt Morgase is a match for Elaida in a contest of wills.”
One has to wonder what would have happened if Elaida hadn’t insisted on coming to Tar Valon to hover over Elayne and hiss “Mine! Mine!” at the other sisters, and instead stayed in Caemlyn like she was damn well supposed to. I mean, I don’t suppose that Elaida would have been able to do much against Gaebril/Rahvin head-on, but it’s possible that her presence would have discouraged Rahvin from even trying to inveigle his way into Morgase’s court in the first place.
Lord. It’s not like I need more reasons to dislike Elaida, but I do keep on finding them, don’t I.
From the corner of her eye, Moiraine saw Egwene, far down the side hall, disappearing hurriedly around a corner. A stooped shape in a leather jerkin, head down and arms loaded with bundles, shambled at her heels. Moiraine permitted herself a small smile, quickly masked. If the girl shows as much initiative in Tar Valon, she thought wryly, she will sit in the Amyrlin Seat one day. If she can learn to control that initiative. If there is an Amyrlin Seat left on which to sit.
Nope, no foreshadowing here, nothing to see, move along…
Chapter 5: The Shadow in Shienar
Redux Commentary
So this entire scene with Moiraine and Siuan is, basically: Siuan telling Moiraine off for deviating from their plan, Moiraine telling Siuan off for thinking they can have a plan with ta’veren in play, and then promptly following that piece of wisdom with an elaborate and detailed… plan. Sigh.
Well, I said she out-Aes Sedaies most Aes Sedai, I didn’t say she was perfect.
It’s fun (if pointless) to speculate whether things would necessarily have gone better if Moiraine actually had succeeded in her plan for the Superboys she lays out here. Obviously it sounds like it would have been much smoother sailing if Mat had indeed been Healed in Fal Dara and Rand had gone straight to Illian with the Horn, but I’m sure somehow it would have gotten all differently mucked up. No conflict, no story, you know. It’s still nice to think about, though, if only for the wistful hope that in that case maybe Fain wouldn’t have had to be involved.
“Only twice since the Breaking of the World has the Amyrlin Seat been stripped of stole and staff.”
“Tetsuan, who betrayed Manetheren for jealousy of Elisande’s powers, and Bonwhin, who tried to use Artur Hawkwing for a puppet to control the world and so nearly destroyed Tar Valon.”
The Amyrlin continued her study of the garden. “Both of the Red, and both replaced by an Amyrlin from the Blue. The reason there has not been an Amyrlin chosen from the Red since Bonwhin, and the reason the Red Ajah will take any pretext to pull down an Amyrlin from the Blue, all wrapped neatly together. I have no wish to be the third to lose the stole and the staff, Moiraine.”
Well, not to worry, Siuan, I’m sure these chapters haven’t been loaded down with foreshadowing at all! And even if they are, ahem, at least your replacement will most emphatically reinforce the truism that Reds make the lousiest Amyrlins. I’m sure that will be very comforting down the line!
Moiraine nodded. Agelmar was familiar with the Prophecy of the Horn; most who fought the Dark One were. “ ‘Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation.’ ”
That is so much cooler a line when you know what’s coming at the end of this book…
Much as it pains me to say it, I think I was a tad unfair to Geofram Bornhald in my original commentary. I mean, if we must have autonomous armies of militant Inquisition-y zealots running around, I would definitely prefer they be led by a guy who is at least nominally against the idea of collateral damage, and once dear old Geofram is gone the Whitecloaks seem to have run out of those.
That said, it’s not like he bothered to protest all that hard over the slaughtered villagers, so that’s pretty much the textbook example of damning with faint praise. Maybe just wading knee-deep in shit is better than getting down and rolling in it, but at the end of the day, you still smell like shit and I don’t want your shitty ass in my house. I’m just saying.
[Bornhald] gathered his reins and rode in the direction the Questioner had taken. Stones on a board. But who is moving us? And why?
I’m baffled about that myself, at the moment. I know this almost certainly gets explained later, but right now I’m not really remembering why Niall is apparently kowtowing to Carridin’s demands re: the moral cleansing of Almoth Plain, and/or (as it turns out) sending Bornhald’s forces straight into the combine harvester of the Seanchan invasion. I mean, yes, Niall probably didn’t know at this point that the Seanchan were a combine harvester, whereas Carridin obviously did; I’m just not sure why Niall is going along with it in the first place. Oh, well, it’s not like I actually care that much.
Twilight was a troubled time for Liandrin of late, that and dawn. At dawn the day was born, just as twilight gave birth to night, but at dawn, night died, and at twilight, day. The Dark One’s power was rooted in death; he gained power from death, and at those times she thought she could feel his power stirring.
I note that she doesn’t call him the Great Lord. Not that we would have really realized the significance of her doing so at this point anyway, but it is a point in favor of my not being a complete moron for not twigging to Liandrin’s Black Ajah status right away. A small point, but a point.
It was not a perfect ability; Liandrin could not force anyone to do what she wanted—though she had tried; oh, how she had tried. But she could open them wide to her arguments, make them want to believe her, want more than anything to be convinced of her rightness.
But this is not to say that she did not make my skin absolutely crawl with this semi-Compulsion stuff. Not that we knew what it was at this point, or that there was a full-blown version as well, but at the time this was more than bad enough. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I have Issues with people who don’t respect other people’s autonomy and ability to consent. I may not have immediately known Liandrin was officially part of the Evil League of Evil™, but I definitely knew that she thoroughly sucked.
Speaking of sucking: Fain. Bleh.
And that’s our show, kids! Have a week, and I’ll see you next Tuesday!
The corrupting influence of an isolated institution theme is repeated with the Black Tower, too. Likewise with the more hidebound aristocracies. Damn, it’s like Jordan knew what he was doing.
Ive always wondered if this wasnt an indirect way of saying that the Tower might pull down “Aes Sedai Queens” afterall an Aes Sedai not beholding to “The Tower” for power (…err sorry) might want to set up her own shop and be competition.
With Moiraine and the supergirls becoming the ideal Aes Sedai, also brings up the ideal AS, Cadsuane. We might not like the way she handles things, but she is (usually) right. (that’s how she became a legend) staying away from the Tower, and the politics included.
Leigh, in your comments you observed “It actually took me a good long while to realize that all the other Aes Sedai we were meeting were not supposed to be equal in awesomeness to Moiraine; that in fact the point was that they were not perfect examples of their avocation, at all.” I believe that Moiraine was not “equal in awesomeness” to Moiraine herself. She is the first Aes Sedai the Two River folks (and the readers themselves) encounter before they (and we) had a true understanding of what an Aes Sedai can or cannot do. Remember the scene in Camelyn when Alanna used the illusion to scare the Two River girls after Rand’s visit. Verin was not scared because she knew it was an illusion. Yet the kids and the inn’s staff were because they did not realize it was an illusion.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
The Red Ajah is basically like Slytherin (except we at least get some good Reds later on!).
“you still smell like shit and I don’t want your shitty ass in my house.” – this cracked me up.
Interesting that the twilight imagery shows up here…
Regarding your thoughts on Moiraine…it’s almost a similar feeling of disillusionment when you realize Obi-Wan is an exceptional Jedi and the Jedi Order as a whole has some similar problems (including the ivory tower-ness). Hmm. Probably a trope for that!
“So this entire scene with Moiraine and Siuan is, basically: Siuan telling Moiraine off for deviating from their plan, Moiraine telling Siuan off for thinking they can have a plan with ta’veren in play, and then promptly following that piece of wisdom with an elaborate and detailed… plan. Sigh.”
That is one of the best quotes I have read in a long time :D Thank you for doing this whole thing again :)
Oh, and Niall thinks he sends Bornhald to help Carridin seize Almoth Plain… It is mentioned in one of the overly long Prologues…
@6Aduaivas- It was in the prologue of TDR, where Niall is schooling Carridin on how he neglected his duty in not helping Bornhald take the Almoth Plain.
The Whitecloak plan was to resurrect the Nation of Almoth as a Whitecloak Nation, no need to even pay lip service to another monarch, even though they effectively ruled Amadicia.
Regarding Liandrin’s strength: The saidar strength scale at the 13th Depository (which is not 100% accurate but is probably pretty darn close and is likely better than anything else we’ll have unless the true list appears in the upcoming Encyclopedia) lists Liandrin at Level 9 (of 21). For comparison, Moirarine, Elaida, and Siuan are at 12; Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha at 15; and Nynaeve at 18.
Regarding the “strength ranking equals social ranking”, and Liandrin not deferring to Moiraine, there was more to this that was revealed by Siuan, who said that she almost was denied permission by the Hall to even go to Fal Dara, and that Moiraine was almost ordered arrested by the Hall, due to meddling by the Black Ajah. Liandrin may have been substituting “moral authority” (LOL) for strength ranking to justify her attitude by thinking that Moiraine had lower standing due to the Green sitters speaking out against her, or she could have just been strictly obeying her real hierarchy by acting to bring Moiraine down a peg.
Given Moiraine’s thoughts here it’s a bit surprising that later on nobody in Andor gave a damn that Elayne was an Aes Sedai during her succession struggle and everyone treated her as a normal Daughter-Heir and High Seat. Yeah, the Apocalypse was coming, but this has never stopped the normal politicking in the Wot universe…
Why are the Reds getting so much credit for “discovering” Elayne? She was the Daughter-heir, she would have come to the Tower anyway even if Elaida never set foot in Caemlyn.
Moiraine should have told the Reds “That’s my niece you are talking about, so give some of the credit to the Blue!” ;)
A few take-aways that caught my attention in chapter 4:
–Hellloooo Verin
–Would the the Whitecloaks really resort to assassination of a random AS just because she was wearing her shawl in public? I never had the impression they were that unethical, but I could be wrong.
–Moraine apparently channeled without guidance the first time. Guess I had forgotten.
–Moraine says there has been no foretelling in centuries. Hmmmm. What about Gitara (Moraine was in the room)? Continuity error b/c NS was written well after TGH?
–Liandrin is up to something (bad).
Relative female OP strength excerpt from Linda’s chart (13th Depository):
Lanfear 21 (highest)
Nynaeve 18
E, E and A 15
Cads 14
Moraine and Siuan 12
Liandrin 9
Other resources may show slightly different rankings, but this puts it in perspective, even if it’s not canon. Cads was a bit stronger than Moraine and Siuan (omission forgiven, Leigh). Liandrin should be deferring to Moraine, but hey, it’s Liandrin and she’s up to something.
The awe that Moiraine inspired in some other sisters reminds me of Cadsuane. Apparently the trick to inspiring awe is having a few good moments, and then making yourself scarce, so the legend can grow.
@9 WinespringBrother – I think you are correct regarding Liandrin’s lack of “strength deference” – it has to do with the recent events in the Hall. As I recall from the discussion of deference in New Spring, when Siuan and Moiraine are given their unpleasant tutorial in the subject from the Blue Ajah Head (her name escapes me), there were a number of variables that might factor into deference at any time (which the Aes Sedai were supposed to calculate correctly on the fly). I suspect that someone like Liandrin would seize on any opportunity to avoid deferring to another Aes Sedai, especially a Blue. In this case, Moiraine’s standing in the hall is such that Liandrin would have little fear that rudeness to Moiraine could have negative consequences.
@11 Ways – I find the Aes Sedai power rankings fascinating – thanks for sharing. In my head, I always had Nynaeve farther ahead of E, E, and A, and closer Lanfear, than the rankings showed. Must be because I like Nynaeve!
Also, w/r/t your comment about the Whitecloaks and assassination, I think (despite their many obvious flaws) that they were not, on the whole, unethical enough to advocate random assassination on a general basis, but they carved out an exception for AS. Whereas Darkfriends generally get at least a show trial before they are executed, it would be impractical if not impossible to try a living AS, so they promote a “shoot on sight” policy for AS (since they view them all as DF’s anyway).
I heart Siuan so much for her fish analogies. Possibly even more than I heart Verin, though that’s a tough call
TaiSharNedStark@12
Did you check out the complete chart? bad_platypus @8 posted a link while I was busy transcribing a few lines. There’s one on tarvalonDOTnet too. It’s not as convenient as the one cited, and a there’s some minor disagreement between the two–like TV has Moraine significantly above Siuan. None of them are cannon, to the best of my knowledge. RJ did say (Sweden, 1995) that he used a 21-level scale and had a rough idea where everyone fell.
You are probably spot-on about WC assassination ethics. Thanks for sharing.
Ways @14: It’s interesting that TV.net has Siuan so far below Moriraine. Of the vast amount of speculation going into these lists, the fact that Moiraine and Siuan are exactly equal is about as solidly founded as possible; from NS, Ch. 12:
The only possible explanation I can see is that for some reason Moiraine is listed at her original strength but Siuan is listed at her eventual strength.
Short time reader, first time commenter here!
First I want to say how happy I am to have found this re-read! I had started reading WoT way back in high school but stopped after KoD when I 1) went to college and 2) started hating the characters and the “slow” pace the series had taken. Finally, years later I picked it up from the beginning and read it end to end in ~2 months. So I have the dual perspective of someone who had to wait years for new books, but also got to binge the whole thing in one “sitting” so to speak. Anyway, I found this re-read… somehow, I’m actually not sure. But I decided to jump in and start re-reading the series again (even though I just finished AMOL earlier this year). I skipped Eye of the World so I could get caught up, but I got a good enough summary from the old/new posts so I’m not too worried.
Phew! So now that my “creds” are out of the way, on to these new chapters:
I’m going to echo someone else’s thoughts from way back and say that I was constantly shocked at how early certain characters show up in this series, and it really shows that Jordan had A LOT of the later side plots rattling around in his head. Verin and Alanna are particularly noteworthy, for obvious reasons. I also felt an especially keen sadness when Anaiya was murdered :(
I had read books 1-11 of the series before starting back up again from the beginning and I STILL forgot/had no clue Liandrin was Black Ajah here. I don’t know if it’s because her presence diminished to almost nothing after Tanchico, or if I’m just that daft. So I completely understand how her actions here could fly under the radar. I will also credit Jordan on his misdirection here, as Fain’s release right after her sequence practically absolves her of guilt, and at this very early point I don’t think we were expecting there to be as many Darkfriends/Black Ajah as it ultimately turned out there was (enough to form their own country, give or take a fiefdom).
AES SEDAI PLOTS. I had almost entirely forgotten Moiraine’s original plan, and I just have to giggle to myself at how it takes Rand another 6 books to actually get to Illian and that the Horn sits in the tower for 93% of the series. On the other hand, this scene between Siuan and Moiraine takes on vastly deeper shades of meaning once you’ve read New Spring. Siuan’s non-reaction to Moiraine’s news about Egwene and Nynaeve is indeed quite shocking in retrospect. In addition, the Hall’s actions here based on NS and later books shows that the Black Ajah has begun moving in earnest to disrupt the White Tower.
Now the Whitecloaks, UGH. Not only are they already terrible, but as an added bonus they are being heavily manipulated by Ishamael and Graendal to sow chaos among Arad Doman. A plan that works brilliantly, as the nation is a complete and utter wreck from here on until the end of the series.
Phew, anyway that was lengthy. I’m sure I have more thoughts but I’ll stop here for now :D
givemeraptors @16
Welcome to Bunker! Grabbing the hunny (100th comment) earns you a free virtual something or other. Maybe we can talk Alice into coming back long enough to bake some cookies, if she isn’t too consumed with the Words of Radiance reread.
Took a while to get here; my RSS has been glacial since the Toredesign and the recent stuff was clogged with you-know-what.
As you know, Bob, I loooove a good infodump!
Elaida should’ve stayed at her post. Best case, Rahvin would’ve mussed his hair while killing her and moved on somewhere else.
The version of Chart 21 I used had explanations/ justifications of the ranking whys, but was different than the one linked above.
@16 Welcome to the Bunker. Please have a seat while we gather the myddral for your turning have the welcoming committee bake you some cookies. Some nice, perfectly safe non-compulsive cookies.
Ahem.
On Laindrin: forget egalitarian, one would think Laindrin would be actually be quite deferential meeting Moraine in her own rooms if Jordan had his strength equals authority clause worked out at this point and the ranking system we have accurate.
There is another reason she should be deferential if she were playing by the rules too: Moraine and co. are ostensibly the reason they are all in Fal Dara. That would make her the de facto primary Tower representative to Lord Aglemar. Aes Sedi in charge of an envoy are traditionally to be deferred to regardless of power ranking or ajah.
Laindrin seems to be a bit stuck up though even leaving aside the fact she plays for Team Evil. My guess is there are probably more than a few non-shadow reds at or above her strength in the Tower who don’t like her because of her ego. Silviana Brehon comes to mind as a likely candidate.
Aes Sedai as ruling monarchs is more of a political problem. From what we know the Tower insists on loyalty to the organization above everything, but a ruler’s loyalty to her nation must come first. Andorans would always question if Queen Elayne was subordinate to Elayne Sedai who must obey the Amyrlin Seat and suspect they were no longer an independent realm.
Jordan sets up that need for secrecy and then Elayne does not seem to care a whit about when se takes thr throne. Then again, it is Elayne. Her sense of self preservation has, at best, only theoretical existence.
Interesting how rare wearing the shawl was before the Tower split.
There is a lot of foreshadowing in the infodumping AS gossip: Eg becomes Amyrlin, Bryne will be sacked before Morgase flees and abdictates, the Aiel will cross the Dragonwall, Siuan will be stilled.
Does Liandrin mention Almoth Plain and then seem surprised because she half remembers Ishy’s orders to take Eg and Ny there?
Sneaky Verin pretends to be studying flowers while taking notes in her flower code.
When did Moiraine get close enough to Elayne to feel her strength? It must have been recently because El is just starting to learn to channel. Was it on the way to the Two Rivers? And did Elaida know she was there?
If the AS are so worried about their reduced numbers they should do something about it. The Salidar AS later have no trouble finding new novices.
The German translation destroyed one of Siuan’s fish sayings, turning fisher-birds into vultures. The translator obviously didn’t know Siuan well enough yet to realize that the fish sayings matter.
Another inaccurate translation is that Siuan is the fifth Blue Amyrlin instead of four of the last five were Blue.
Keeping Eg as a servant/novice in the Tower after deposing her as rebel Amyrlin didn’t work so well.
How does Liandrin recognize a book she has never read from hearing someone read from it? Can she see the title?
Is Liandrin one of those from whom Verin learned Compulsion?
Eg and Mat must be who is visiting Fain in his POV.
Resurrecting Almoth into a Whitecloak nation was only the beginning. If I remember Niall’s plan accurately, he was figuring that New Almoth and Amador would have surrounded Tanchico and they eventually would have fallen to Whitecloak influence, leaving Arad Doman with nothing but Whitecloak nations to the south. It was a sound plan really, if a little devious.
re: planning planny plans of planned plannity
Actually Moiraine just tells Siuan, that she can’t fault here for abandoning their plan and flying by the seat of her pants dress because ta’veren. That doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t plan ahead, even in great detail, just that they should always be aware that their plans could be ta’verened six ways to sunday at any given time. Basically the cliff notes version of this scene is “We need one hell of a good plan, girlfriend, but be prepared to MacGyver Indy Ploys at a rate of 17 making-shit-up-as-I-go per second at the drop of a hat”.
re: Moiraine standard of Aes Sedai-ness
I didn’t expect them to collect “Annual Moiraine Sedai Awards for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence”. I would have settled for adequacy, basic competence, general human decency… alas…
@17 — I was wondering what the hunny was! Hopefully I get to snag it at some point :D
@19 — O_O
@21 — The problem is that the White Tower doesn’t accept girls over a certain (fairly young) age. They do this because it’s easier to indoctrinate educate younger individuals on the practices of the White Tower. This also explains their incredible rigidity and aversion to change. Nearly all Aes Sedai have been brought up in the tower since adolescence, plus they undergo a grueling test that requires them to believe heart and soul in the White Tower above all else, and if they not, they are thrown out and forgotten. When Egwene finally opens the novice book, many of the Salidar AS comment on the difficulties of treating older women as they do novices. Sharina is a good example of this. Setting aside her enormous potential, Sharina’s age makes a good many sisters uncomfortable, even though she’s continually stated to be the “perfect” novice.
I have always wondered if Moiraine ever told Siuan the full story of what happened at the Eye of the World. Do we ever find out?
On Liandrin’s lack of deference: I wonder if it’s because she was (ostensibly) sent to summon Moiraine to the Amyrlin?
Moiraine is like a lot of the sparkers in that she started channeling on her own. If the AS had actually been willing to actively search and test for sparkers and learners, they would have kept their numbers much higher than they are at this point in the story.
I suspect Verin also learned Compulsion pretty much on her own, as her use of it later on was not as sophisticated as the Forsaken, although certainly better than Liandrin’s.
birgit @@@@@ 21: Are you suggesting that Egwene and Mat were the ones who set Fain free? Or that they were just visiting him earlier? I don’t recall any references to somebody accompanying Egwene on her visits. I know Fain said “They are coming for me.” but at his actual release, he sees a single figure at his cell door.
@8 That listing makes a lot of sense. Nynaeve was able to hold her own with Moghedian in their encounters and even get the best of her, so if that means Mogs is around a 17-18 rank, it goes a long way to showing just how the eventual confrontation between Liandrin and Mogs went.
@11 Liandrin not being properly deferring could have been her being up to something or it could have been her being her. Since she struggled with being properly deferential to Mogs, which, as I just typed, didn’t exactly work out as well as she might have hoped. If anything, she is the classic case of a massive ego combined with nowhere near enough ability as she seems to think she has. Classic Smug Snake Syndrome distilled into one of the series’ more unlikeable characters.
@10
This always bugged me too. It’s like taking credit for an eclipse. It was always going to happen, you didn’t do it! Also I really thought the Reds should have realized that having someone like Elaida near Elayne was probably NOT the best way to get her to consider joining the Red Ajah in the future. I mean… would you want to hang out with Elaida? They could’ve sent one of their cool Reds, like Pevara or Teslyn or… wait, all the other Reds suck, don’t they? Oh well.
Well, Elaida had that foretelling, didn’t she? So she made sure to attach herself to the Trakand family.
I always thought (not at the time, but in Re-read hindsight) that the person who released Fain was Ingtar.
Randalator @@@@@ 23
I had the same thoughts on both points you addressed but was too lazy to put them into words.
They had to have some plan or broad idea for action, certainly.
Moiraine was exceptional, most AS shouldn’t have been able to match her in most positive ways, but still, come on (shrill and exasperated whine)!! Nevertheless, her awesomeness (I mean it as the old meaning of the word as well) probably has an effect for the readers’ view of AS later on.
Ways@17
We would need a Basic Gravitation Surge binding to bring Alice back to this thread. She’s having a blast over there.
Moiranie is certainly exceptional, but she isn’t the shining paragon of good traits in my mind (which actually makes her a better, far more human character to read in my mind).
While she did the best she could based on her personality and upbringing, the ugly truth of the matter is at least some of Rand’s paranoia, mistrust and downright hostility towards all things Aes Sedi for 3/4 of the series was a direct result of how poorly she treated him at times.
Manipulation and secrecy breed resentment. Especially from young men. I know I have been one before. I can understand why she didn’t want to tell him everything, but treating him as a person and just talking to him from the get go would have netted her more positive results.
Funny thing about people, try to make them do something–especially in a disingenuous manner and they will hate you and fight back. Simply ask them on the other hand, and 90% of the time they’ll be happy to do it–especially if you tell them why. People will even respond to direct orders in a more complaint manner when they know what the purpose behind them is.
One only need look at Rand’s relationship with Cadsuane to see the proof of that. He didn’t like her, but he listened to her advise and even sought it out, because he knew exactly where he stood with her.
To Moraine’s credit, she did figure this out and make adjustments after going into Rhuidean. Low and behold her relationship with him improved almost overnight and Rand actually started listening to her. Of course it wasn’t long after that she went and got herself taken out of the picture until Tarmon Gai’don itself.
What get’s me is for someone who had been out in the world for nigh on 20 years, she should have known from the get-go that the way to influence a rural Andoran farmboy is not with Daes freaking Dea’mar.
But of course that’s not what Jordan needed her to do from the standpoint of the story, and as a Carheinen noble and an Aes Sedi her initinal course is still plausible. Too bad though, Rand could have learned so much more from her beyond “All the other Aes Sedi except maybe Verin and you’re lifelong friends are probably not trustworthy.”
Egwene visited Fain and took Mat with her. Fain was expecting someone who would rescue him and was happy about the opportunity to get the dagger back when Mat appeared instead. Ingtar and the Myrddraal arrived while Eg and Mat were there.
wcarter @@@@@ 32
Your assessment of Moiraine in your post is right, IMO. But the point I (and Randalator @@@@@ 23, I think) was making was different. She was larger than life, a true Gandalf figure, mysterious, competent, powerful. She wasn’t omnipotent, we knew early on that she wasn’t in control of much of what was going on. The readers fairly soon were to have no illusions that she was perfect. Nevertheless, Moiraine was very impressive, especially through the eyes of the rustic TR folk. Later, the other AS weren’t so. Even the very competent ones, like Cadsuane, were stripped of their mystery.
I’m very curious as to what would occur if Moiraine was able to execute her plan to get Rand control of Illian. She would probably keep the Duopotamians in the dark and just try to get them to go south, then Fain would steal the dagger and the horn again, and then if she had to tell them the real plan, they would probably complain that she is controlling them. We can see what Rand thinks of Moiraine’s orderly plans in TDR. Even if the group did get to Illian, would Rand actually be able to take control of the city simply by bringing them the horn? I doubt it.
…And also at the end of the last book. Olver wasn’t thinking about much besides survival at that point. Unless someone knows that that scene was from RJ’s notes, I’ll bet Brandon keyed in on this line when he wrote that scene.
sps49 @18
Which “Chart 21” are you using? They aren’t all consistent, I’m just curious.
wcarter @19
Right you are, sir. Liandrin is level 9, while Silviana is level 10, Pevara (+Androl FTW!!!) is level 11 and Elaida is level 12 (according to Linda’s chart, anyway).
CireNaes @31
Heh. Right you are! Pretty sure she wants to be involved here, but simply lacks the time. I understand.
Annnnd…I have to retract this from my @11
because she really said few.
@5 – At least Horace Slughorn is a good Slytherin. So is Phineas Nigelus (for the most part).
@11 re foretelling – I think Jordan has made it clear that not everything that everyone says is actually correct. I can see that Moiraine would have had a very good reason to disassociate herself from Gitara’s foretelling, especially since she and Siuan are now the only two living people to have heard it. It’s genius actually, to make your characters appear that they know exactly what is going on but then they really don’t. Especially the protagonists. BTW thanks for posting the power rankings, so interesting that Lanfear was most powerful – was that with or without her angreal?
Moghedian must be at 18, same as Nyn, or was she a level below?
Ny probably hadn’t reached her full strength yet when she was equal with Moggy.
In NS Moiraine hasn’t reached her full strength yet when she meets Cads, but she was trained in the Tower for more than the two years the series takes. Why do the main characters gain their strength so fast?
@42 Birgit
Siuan explained to the Super girls that they grew faster than the should have–especially Egwene who actually surpassed Elayne and Aviendha in strength for a time (but not total potential strength) because they were “forced.”
Given “forcing” was the in-world term for it, I imagine it was something that had been experimented with at some point in the Tower’s 3,000 +/- year history before they decided it was a bad idea. Burning out your initiates is probably bad for morale after all.
I’m less certain about this, but I also think it was stated at some point that the stronger you are the faster you tend to grow as well. Elaida, Moraine, and Siuan all spent only three years each as novice and accepted compared to the average six to ten.
thepupxpert @40 and 41
I read the text incorrectly. Twice. Likely due to the late hour. Moraine said few, not none. Mea culpa.
The power rankings wouldn’t make much sense if various angreal were in play. So, I’ve always taken it as without, but I don’t see a statement on that topic in Linda’s blog. Moghedien clocks in at 16, lowest of the female forsaken. Mesaana is a 17 and Semihrage an 18 like Nynaeve. Check out the link, but keep in mind that RJ said there are many other factors involved in one-on-one contest.
Ways @14 and bad-platypus@8 –
Thanks for the references to the complete power rankings. I found the 13th Depository List more easily, but both are a good way to kill hours. It surprised me quite a bit that Cyndane was only one level below Lanfear. Didn’t several Forsaken doubt that the two were one and the same because Cyndane was so much weaker? I guess the answer is that a single point on the chart is a significant amount. My next thought is that since Cyndane is still more powerful than any other female Forsaken, shouldn’t the others – who doubted that she was Lanfear – have been freaking out about this immensely powerful channeler who came seemingly out of nowhere? They certainly seemed intrigued, but I did not detect the level of freak-out that I would expect such a newcomer to cause, especially in a group that constantly maneuvers for power. Of course all of this is several books away…
Wcarter @19 – excellent welcome to givemerapters. As a virtually brand-new commenter, I am waiting for my cookies and/or turning. Either would be fine.
Randalator @23 – I agree on the need to plan, despite the likelihood of numerous stumbling blocks and/or total chaos (and I love the “planning planny plans of planned plannity” – I may use that in my next TPS report, assuming I can find the correct cover sheet…). I think many boxers have said that everyone has a plan until you punch them in the mouth. That may be true, but you still need to plan.
Birgit @33 – Does anyone ever figure out or explain why Fain and the Myrddral left Egwene alive? That never made sense to me. Clearly they have no problem taking the time to kill folks – witness the guards and the writing on the wall. I think I understand why Mat was left alive – I assume Ingtar was given some instructions at the Dark Friend Social that involved keeping Mat alive – but there seems to have been no reason to leave Egwene alive.
No matter how many times I read this series, I will never stop loving Siuan and her fish metaphors. I only hope that the day I ever manage to get my own writing published, I can include a running gag as popular and beloved as that. :)
An interesting side note to the “now we’re exposed to a whole new aspect of Randland through the Aes Sedai” phenomenon: the contrast between Siuan, practical and cynical yet still quite deft with politics and manipulation, and Moiraine is quite intriguing. On the one hand, as we’ll learn in TSR and TFOH (and also in NS), Moiraine herself is incredibly skilled at Daes Dae’mar, but on the other hand one of the best ways to be skilled at it is not to give away that you are. What’s interesting is the manner in which she hides this is by concealing it behind…her quintessential Aes Sedai-ness. Leigh touches on this through talking about how all other Aes Sedai after her pale in comparison, but I find it interesting to note that even Siuan seems less awesome in comparison, less a perfect Aes Sedai. Which is funny, because Moiraine is just as good at manipulating, plotting, and politicking as Siuan is, if not better—but because we first meet Moiraine outside the Tower, she comes off as closer to the “true Aes Sedai”. This also of course plays into the feats mentioned here she’s believed to have carried out…not to mention how legendary she’ll become later after the docks at Cairhien.
As a side note, the fact Siuan had to stay in the Tower and deal with the machinations of the Black is indeed a big reason why she was neither as effective as she could have been as Amyrlin nor seemingly as awesome an Aes Sedai as Moiraine, which just supports Leigh’s point about why Moiraine comes off so well.
And yes, I am pretty sure Jordan hated the institutionalized mindset, and I cannot agree with him more emphatically. Luckily we see some signs late in the series that the Tower can break out of that mold, and not just the Supergirls (although obviously their influence had a big part to do with this; on the other hand Cadsuane has been in a class by herself despite also being quintessentially Aes Sedai, and Pevara and the Black Ajah Hunters seemed to be learning to think outside the box without any outside influence from the Heroes).
Still love Anaiya. *sobs*
I suspect Jordan hadn’t created the deferment ranking system yet at this point, but I also have to agree that based on personalities, Moiraine would want to defer to Anaiya and Liandrin would take every chance she got not to have to defer to Moiraine. And while it’s true Moiraine as leader of an envoy would also outrank her, the fact Moiraine is not approved of in the Hall at the moment (specifically that the Greens are against her) might have encouraged Liandrin to try and get away with her haughtiness. (“If the Greens, my mortal enemies and usual allies of the Blues, are against her, then…”)
Needing a powerful Aes Sedai openly as a monarch: on top of the reasons already named, it’s pretty clear that Andor in particular and the world in general is going to need strong rulers to repair and restore it after the Last Battle. A queen who was openly an Aes Sedai, and a powerful one, could accomplish that a lot better and easier, both through her own power and through the respect and deference it would command from the Tower, those nations which respect it, and people who would admire and love rather than fear the Aes Sedai who fought and saved them from the Shadow.
Amazing it could be noted how few of those Aes Sedai survive to the end, considering the reputation of this series for not killing characters off. Some of that of course is due to the sudden high body count in the last three books, but some of it is also a slow attrition along the way.
I like to imagine if Elaida had stayed in Caemlyn, things would have been more awesome than we suppose. Not only was she very strong, so might possibly have been able to stand up to Rahvin, at the very least her presence (and not being able to be frightened or Compelled or cowed the way that young Red was) might have made him choose somewhere else to take over. Ghealdan, with Alliandre? (Which would have possibly eliminated that damn Masema plot.) Cairhien, since he had been trying to get Morgase to take it over, which would have made the whole Shaido fight and the Lanfear/Moiraine confrontation go down differently? Also if she hadn’t been in the Tower she couldn’t have been poisoned by Fain. On the other hand, the Blacks still would have pulled Siuan down some other way, and it might not have been guaranteed there’d be a strong rebel movement or that Egwene would be Amyrlin. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills…
The Amyrlin Seat (the chair, not the person) is in fact almost destroyed in the Seanchan attack in TGS. Subtler foreshadowing there too!
Moiraine did make a mistake in contradicting her own advice, but in her defense, going into it without any kind of plan at all would have been foolhardy. The difference is she should have gone “this is what I’d like to happen, but the Pattern may not allow it so this plan is subject to instant revision or even abandonment at a moment’s notice.” I.e., her mistake was in sticking too rigidly and insistently to her plan rather than having one at all.
As for the alternate weaving of the threads: well if Moiraine’s plan had succeeded, the Seanchan would have invaded Falme mostly unopposed and thus would have gotten a foothold much sooner than they did in Ebou Dar; we also wouldn’t have the subplot with Egeanin or the sul’dam wherein the truth about them was discovered, the Seanchan and Semirhage would have gotten hold of the Domination Band sooner, and of course once Sammael came to Illian he might have gotten his hands on the Horn. So it may be just as well.
Not much to say about the obvious foreshadowing with Siuan’s deposing again, except to note that we still don’t know the full story even now of Tetsuan or Bonwhin. The latter was described in the Guide, and while we are told it may not be fully accurate I expect a lot of what was in there is correct based on it fitting what we know of Reds, but Tetsuan is barely discussed at all. Hopefully more about them will be in the encyclopedia.
The prophecy of the Horn: it is absolutely cool when thinking of how it references what happens with Ingtar at the end (and for that matter how Mat uses the Horn to save them all from the Seanchan). But it also applies to poor Olver, desperately trying to save himself from the Trollocs (and, to a lesser extent, help out Mat from afar). Not just cool, but heartwarming. “One had come back for him”, indeed…
While Geofram was a dick to Perrin, I remember actually liking him more in this scene, but I have to agree it’s damning with faint praise since he only seems good compared to Carridin and the Questioners, or to the Seanchan. But yes as others have said, Niall wanted to recreate the nation of Almoth as a buffer and to help extert pressure on Arad Doman and Tarabon. As much as the Seanchan screwed things up in other ways, I have to say I’m glad they prevented this from happening (not to mention taking over Amadicia too). Not that Galad wouldn’t have been a good ruler, I suppose, but without the Seanchan taking over (or the Prophet), I doubt he’d have gotten the chance to do that, and he’s better off in Andor or Mayene anyway. Although if Rahvin had taken over Ghealdan instead of Andor that could have made things interesting for the Whitecloaks on both sides of him…
I thought that we had seen Darkfriends call the Dark One the Great Lord, either in the previous book or at the social in the prologue? In any event I’m pretty sure Jordan didn’t use that here in order to hide her affiliation not because he hadn’t thought of it yet. The whole scene was actually written as a very nice red herring (hah!) for Liandrin’s true nature, particularly since we see a number of examples later of Darkfriends who don’t particularly like the Dark One or serving him, or who actively wish the Last Battle hadn’t come in their lifetimes, so her being “troubled” by his stirring isn’t that out-of-character. Of course her light Compulsion did make her skeevy from the get-go even beyond how she treated Moiraine (and Amalisa), but if we’d known at this point about the Blue fear weave Moiraine uses in NS, this wouldn’t have stood out as much.
@2 TWGrace: Possibly, although it’s just as likely non-channelers who feared them were responsible, like the Tairens or the Whitecloaks.
@3 Samadai: Exactly.
@7 Jonellin: Even though they already had Amadicia, he wanted it because it would allow the Whitecloaks to have influence over both Arad Doman and Tarabon, especially their trade, and eventually squeeze Tarabon between their nations.
@10 Bergmaniac: Maybe what they discovered was just how powerful her potential was? Not only is that important in and of itself, but most queens and Daughter-Heirs of Andor only went to the Tower as a formality in honor of their alliance. Elayne’s great strength meant she’d be the first in a long time to need to go through the whole Aes Sedai system.
As for Moiraine, aside from the Red/Blue animosity, they’d probably say her family connection is irrelevant given she denied that when she refused the throne of Cairhien. :P
@11 Ways: Yes, but only where they held power and thus could get away with it.
Maybe she meant no Foretelling aside from Gitara? We do know that before Elaida, the only modern Foretellings were all Gitara’s (and I don’t think her Foretellings about Tigraine and Luc were common knowledge). It can’t actually be a continuity error related to NS because the Foretelling of the Rebirth is revealed right in this book.
@12 TaiSharNedStark: Hence why the only Amyrlin the Whitecloaks ever “tried” was one who was already dead (which is a reference to Pope Formosus and the Cadaver Synod).
And to you at 45: No confirmation/explanation was ever given, but off the top of my head I’d guess that maybe with the Horn being stolen and the guards coming, the Fade and Fain didn’t have time to do anything permanent to Egwene since they needed to escape. Also recall that Ishamael wanted to have Egwene taken away to Seanchan (presumably to have her forced to fight against Rand when they invaded), so he may have ordered her spared.
@21 birgit: Liandrin and Almoth Plain: most likely so. Liandrin and Verin: less likely, since Verin’s Compulsion isn’t described the same way and it actually works. As for the Amyrlin thing, that isn’t a translation error. The original text for TGH had said all five past Amyrlins were Blue, but Jordan retconned this later when he came up with the Gray Sierin Vayu. Someone apparently didn’t update the German translation the same way the English one was.
And good question regarding Moiraine and Elayne…but then we know Moiraine was traveling around the world a lot prior to the first book, and we don’t know exactly when Elaida came to Caemlyn–Moiraine might have sensed Elayne before then, but didn’t get to inform anyone in the Tower until recently. Or maybe she passed through Caemlyn on her way to the Two Rivers…
@23 Randalator: My sentiments exactly regarding planning, although said much more hilariously and troperiffic-ally!
@25 BillinHI: We never find out, but I presume not, since Siuan never mentions knowing Aginor and Balthamel died. As for Fain, Jordan confirmed the single figure at the door was Ingtar, letting him out; Mat and Egwene came to visit after he was already loose, and that’s how the dagger got stolen and they got knocked out (I believe the Fade Ingtar let in did that).
@32 wcarter: Indeed, Moiraine was one of the best Aes Sedai but she bungled with Rand (the things we generally consider her awesome for aren’t things she did to or for him). And you give a good explanation as to why she did (beyond Jordan needing her to). Still, I wonder how honest with Rand she could ever have brought herself to be, and whether even complete honesty would have been enough to keep him from bolting. Maybe if she’d told him before he met Siuan, he would have handled it all better?
@36 AlexF: Glad I wasn’t the only one to pick up on that!
@43 wcarter: This.
Leigh
re: opposition to Aes Sedai queens
[i]This makes a sort of sense to me, really. In non-apocalyptic times, having someone be a monarch and a sorcerer is just way too much power to concentrate in one person, it’s ridiculous. The potential for despotism and tyranny is through the roof, especially when you consider the fact that magic wielders in this universe can have a lifespan six times that of an ordinary person. And let’s not even get into the notion of having a head of state who could potentially use Compulsion on her subjects.[/i]
I don’t quite follow that logic.
If the designated Aes Sedai queen has a penchant for despotism and tyranny, opposing her isn’t exactly helping, because she’ll just despotize and tyrannize all over your opposition.
If she’s of the non-despotizing and -tyrannizing disposition, there is no need for opposition in the first place.
So, at the end of the day, what really changes?
Hi folks,
Leigh is feeling under the weather so there won’t be a Reread Redux post this week (for June 16).
BUT…
There will still be a Wheel of Time post and it’s one in which we think you’ll very much want to take part. Check back with us at 1 PM EST!
I think people who are looking too closely at the power rankings for the Nynaeve/Moghedien smackdown are missing an important part. Even if we take it for granted that Nynaeve was at her highest power possible during that fight, it’s still amazing she won for one simple reason: Moghedien has been doing this way, way longer than she has.
The thing the power ranking chart doesn’t include in it is experience. Knowing all the tricks and limitations is way more important than having a power level of 18 (or OVER 9000!). I’d take a 13 over an 18 if the 13 has been doing things for over a century, and the 18 has been doing it under a year. Old age and trickery beating youth and enthusiasm, and all those old yarns.
So yes, Nynaeve may have been equal or even more powerful than Moggy at the time, but what makes it a kick butt win is that Moghedien knew way too many tricks for it to have been an easy fight. Brute power only gets you so far.
Leigh, sorry that you are under the weather. Hope you feel better.
-AndrewB
mpark6288 @49
No doubt!! That’s why I’d encourage everybody to read the entirety of Linda’s blog on the subject.
Get well soon Leigh!
@Ways Link to Linda’s blog?
@49 It also helps that Nynaeve didn’t win using brute force either. She tricked Moggy into getting close enough to clock her with the domination band (or whatever she was holding, I can’t remember exactly).
WDWParksGal @52: It’s in comment #8 (Linda is the curator of the 13th Depository).
Well, things are getting going in the story.
Elidia is at this level too, which is part of what makes her so pesky and stupid, yet so influential. Then there is of course Cads, who is above this level, but we have no idea about her at this point and all the AS think she is retired or dead (I think Romanda may have been at or near this level as well, but everyone thought her retired).
It is interesting as our world view is widened here and we are introduced to more Aes Sedai and their views/personalities. Liandrin, and by proxy the Red Ajah, are introduced (well, not really introduced as we met Elidia and heard Mo’s explanation of the different philosophies of the two Ajahs in the previous book) as the “bad” Aes Sedai. Not necessarily Team Evil bad, but obstructionist, wrong headed and overall dunderheads, while the blue ajah is the “good” ajah that is about fighting evil and being on our hero’s “side”. Also browns are absent minded professors that dawdle around and are “harmless” types that sometimes have shrewd insights. The rest of the ajahs, even the green, just run together at this point. We later learn that these initial assessments are, of course, vastly over simplified and not quite right.
I find it interesting how, as the series progresses, the reader’s view of the ajahs subtly shifts. The Red Ajah remains the ‘Slytherin’ group, but we are given access to some members that are actually pretty decent. The Blue Ajah starts to come off as too driven and single minded, hyper-focused and missing the big picture; and the green Ajah comes off as the ‘right’, or, well balanced, Ajah (not that it doesn’t have its fair share of loonies & darkfriends) that most of our heroes are aligned with (with the exception of Ny.). But, by that point in the series, our perception of the AS is so damaged and deconstructed, I’m not sure it matters much.
@5 – This isn’t the first time I’ve seen a comparison of the Reds to Slytherin and “feel compelled” to point out that we do indeed see some good Slytherins, most notably Professor Slughorn, who assisted in getting students out of Hogwarts safely at the start of the second War and in rounding up the Hogsmede community to fight against You-Know-Who, and and former Headmaster Phineas Nigellus, who provided assistance to the Order and Headmasters of Hogwarts. We also see some good Reds. It isn’t a black vs. white issue.
As to the AES “Power Ranking” – I suggest this be seen as a logarithmic scale. 10 is much greater than 9, but 21 is just a tad stronger than 18. In other words, our favorite Nynaeve (well she is one of mine) is going to give Lanfear a knock-down, drag-out fight that neither might survive.
@5 – Professor Horace Slughorn – my favorite Slytherin!
For anyone reading this nine years later, the Companion has canon power rankings (with the caveat that time/place/conditions/affinities mean you can’t just compare these two numbers and say who wins):
On the old (pre-Supergirls) scale, Moiraine and Siuan are both 1. Liandrin is 2, so nearly as powerful. Elaida is also a 1.
On the new (post-Supergirls and OMG Forsaken) scale, Moiraine, Siuan, and Elaida are 13 with Liandrin at 14. Aviendha is 11. Egwene and Elayne are 8. Moghedien is 4. Nynaeve is 3, as is Graendal. Lanfear is 1.
Rand and Ishy are both ++1 which is six ranks higher than 1 because the scale needed to be more complicated.